Friday, January 26, 2007

Who Was Jesus? Simply the Most Amazing Man in History or Son of God?

10. You can take #9 and pretty much just insert the name of Jesus in each place where it says Bible. There can be almost no question that He was the most remarkable human to ever walk the planet, and has had the most impact of any other man. Given his short life, very brief public activity, location of his birth, life, and death, methods of his work, and claims made by him and about him, an honest intellectual cannot dismiss the possibility that He was more than mere human. It is evidence that must be weighed.

Bernardo's response to #10. Jesus is a combination of many "god-man" myths that existed around the near-east at the times before and during the beginning of Christianity. A historical Jesus may have lived, but I think it is very unlikely that he was born of a virgin, died and came back, etc. I think this just because so many myths existed before the time of Jesus that said the same thing. The following make for good reading: POC...arted_pocm.html and 0060655186

Randy's response (Please also see Cordin's thoughts related to this on Bible post just previous): Please keep in mind that I'm attempting to build up evidence. If I go draw a straight flush one time at home and nobody sees it, I don't have anything. If I have one witness, I have something. If I have two witnesses, most won't dispute it. If I do this in Las Vegas in front of 25 witnesses, I might make the local paper. If I do it on TV during a competition, it will be almost indisputable, though some skeptics might still try.

If I do it twice in a row, there will be massive scrutiny, and even if there is never a showing of wrongdoing, and it is all recorded for everyone to see, a huge percentage of those called to judge the event will say it was rigged. If I did it three hands in a row, potentially almost the entire population of those who have an opinion would choose "fraud," "trick," or some such.

Jesus's coming was predicted (no one questions the clamor for a messiah), and there were specific aspects that were predicted in the OT. All of those were met. When he lived, he performed "miracles" that were witnessed by 1000's, and there is no record of dispute as to the miracles. His public life was very brief, and was the antithesis of what would be expected of any messiah. But even though he didn't do the kinds of things that one usually associates with greatness, nor did he seem to desire fame, fortune, and even turned away potential followers, he ends up the greatest human leader in history. And his leadership doesn't end at his death, but grows afterwards for 2000 years.

Of course everyone should be skeptical of his divinity, of his miracles, and of the nature of the prophesy of his life and his own prophesies. That includes every Christian. However, 2,000,000,000 people alive today have looked at the evidence, weighed the miracle into the data, and come up with "yes." (3,000,000,000 if you count Muslims who agree he was divine.)


Duck said...

When he lived, he performed "miracles" that were witnessed by 1000's, and there is no record of dispute as to the miracles.

What? There are no surviving copies of the Skeptical Inquirer from 33 AD?

No record of dispute? What about the Jews who were not convinced? What about his trial before the Sanhedrin? I'd call that a dispute, a very big dispute.

However, 2,000,000,000 people alive today have looked at the evidence, weighed the miracle into the data, and come up with "yes."
I doubt that all 2 million looked at the evidence or weighed the data. People largely accept the faith of their parents on authority. That's not very persuasive to a skeptic. You are giving reasons that are persuasive to people already persuaded, but noone else.

Cordin said...


However, 2,300,000,000 people alive today have looked at the evidence, weighed the miracle into the data, and come up with "no." (3,300,000,000 if you count Muslims who agree he was not the Son of God.) 3.3 billion plus one if you count myself, an ex-believer. (As Duck commented, these numbers also do not literally represent those who have examined anything.)

As to the argument that 1,000's witnessed the miracles of Jesus, would you accept the apparitions of Lady of Fatima? The Miracle of the Sun is alleged to have been seen by as many as 70,000 people on 13 October 1917 in the Cova da Iria fields near Fátima, Portugal predicted in advance by three children "so that all may believe" in the apparition of the 'Blessed Virgin Mary' that appeared to them earlier. Fraud? Trickery? Demons? Or some such? Would it make a difference if the only accounts were nearly 2,000 years old? Or is the main criteria whether or not it fits in with our world view and/or theology?

Randy Kirk said...

I would evaluate all historical events with the same set of tools. I would not give more or less credibility to something political than I do religious. And because these events are historical, we are forced to evaluate them differently than we do a replicable experiment. I would argue that weight should be given to the credentials of those reporting, the quality of the physical evidence, and the actions of folks effected by the event.

I think multifold thousands of smart folks have reviewed the data regarding the Bible and Jesus, and substantial numbers have voted "yes" and "no" to the question of the Divinity of each. I think it should weigh very heavily how many smart folks have said "yes." By no means is the fact that so many say yes is merely very weighty.

By the way, I think the same thing is true for Global "you know what." (Sorry Bernardo.)

Cordin said...

"Who Was Jesus? Simply the Most Amazing Man in History or Son of God?"

Could I see what's behind door #3 please?

Randy Kirk said...

Sure Cordin. You can even create what you want to go behind door #3. Just keep in mind the propetic elements, the new ground He plowed, the short time of His public life, the fact that he personally left no writings, and the results of the things He did and said.

Junji Malaza said...

you know what the old testament predictions you said, were not meant for Yeshua at all. It meant the whole of Yisrael not Yeshua. This is how most believers in Yeshua put it, Christians interpret the OT without the Oral Torah or the Mishnah, that is why most Christians always refer this as the fulfillment of the prophecy. It would be best to consult a rabbi when quoting OT text as this is their domain. I think you are most likely influenced by Paul the original architect of modern Christianity or Hellenistic Judaism.

Duck... Yeshua was not tried by the Sanhedrin, the Sanhedrin meets in the morning not midnight, he was tried by a kangaroo court by Roman Collaborators such as those who were directly appointed by the Roman authorities to that position, more likely the henchmen of Annas the retired high priest(who is actually pulling the strings) along with the current high priest his son-in-law and the mostly saducees bunch who really hated Yeshua, because he was causing a stir and the jobs of the collaborator priests were in danger.

Muslims do not worship Isa(Jesus/Yeshua), he is in fact one of their prophets.

Here is a food for thought if Muslims and Jews do not worship Jesus/Yeshua/Isa, does that not mean that Christianity is voted out.
Another issue is how do you know that this is actual history when in fact these gospels were written during or after 70CE, and very much influenced by Paul, what happened to the other Apostles.
Why do you think that Yeshua never asked for someone to write his teachings down unlike Mohammed. I think there was no need for Yeshua to look for a secretary because all of his teachings are in the OT. If he was the son of g-d and as most christians say he is and also g-d why would he say "...“Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God"(

Anonymous said...

Grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be upon you all. I hope that you will take the time to read what I suggest to you to read.
Firstly, Jesus is the only begotten and fully divine Son of God. This is as real as the air that you breathe and the food that you eat, no amount of scholastic debate from fictitious sources can ever change that, what is truth is truth. There are many things about God that we cannot understand as we are mortal imperfect and we die.God is not mortal, God is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent. Some of you think that he does not exist, why don't you ask Him to prove His existence to you. If you ask in Jesus name for God to show you who He is then He will. God gave us His Son, Jesus to die for us so that we could be saved from our sins. The story of redemption is one which will be studied for eternity. Jesus died for all men, even His enemies and this shows the highest morality, courage and charachter of all men that ever existed. He rose out of the grave and defeated death and sin so that we can have victory over the same things. I pray that you purchase a copy of the Bible, the King James or the Hebrew and ask the Holy Spirit to reveal the truth to you.
I will also reveal to you that God rose up a prophet in the last days, that we are living in the time where the antichrist - the pagan and false christ or cosmic christ is set to return and counterfiet the second coming of Jesus and that laws will be enacted prohibiting religious freedom due to holy war, christians versus muslim or aliens invasion. Please get a copy of the GREAT CONTROVERSY, or STORY OF REDEMPTION, or PROPHET OF THE END, or DESIRE OF AGES. Please understand that your salvation is of utmost importance to God, God loves you He gives you life and His LOVE and grace will save you.
Peace to you in Jesus name.